WinUI Community Call: November 5, 2025 #10851
Replies: 15 comments 51 replies
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Why are you prioritizing new features with limited usefulness or accessibility over fixing existing bugs? For instance, many AI-related features aren’t available to most developers—they require specific dependencies like Copilot+ PCs or certain Windows Insider builds. Meanwhile, there are numerous unresolved issues with the titlebar and window behavior that we’ve been waiting to see fixed since version 1.6, but nothing has changed. We don’t need new features right now—just fix the bugs. |
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Microsoft, like a child who keeps up with the trend in the old days, always wants to shine in the AI field. I don't think this is the wrong choice. But this is not what Windows App SDK developers urgently need, especially WinUI developers! AI function should not be the focus of Windows App SDK. I don't think any WinUI developer expects to see only a lot of AI function updates in the official version of 2.0. |
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Just to clarify, I believe OP meant "accessible" as in "has system requirements that the target userbase can meet", not stuff like tab navigation or screen readers. Both are very important, just thought I'd clarify. |
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23 votes and 25 likes, but still no answer! Please take the time to respond to my questions — and to others’ as well. |
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And zero updates on the sore state of C++ tooling. |
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I guess its because if it does not include AI , the project manager gets fired. |
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I will repost the questions I had when you announced the OSS update, as I still think they are important and could be addressed during the community call.
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The way I see it, the only significant C++ support that could be added in the future C++26, C++29, or beyond that is worth investing in is allowing authorship of WinRT types using a custom C++ syntax through compile time reflection and eliminating hand authored MIDL. |
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Basically what was promised in 2017, after killing C++/CX, that I and many others paid for, and our opinion in killing Visual Studio developer experience had zero value for a developer group that rather write IDL files with the same developer experience as doing ATL in Visual C++ 6.0. I imagine a $4 trillion valued company can afford a C++ Builder or Qt Design Studio license, and get an intern to collect all features missing from WinUI XAML C++ developer experience in RAD tooling, to see how behind the times WinUI happens to be. However I imagine that if C++/WinRT ever gets out of maintenace, is to bind it with some AI tool. |
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The reality is that Microsoft no longer cares about desktop development (or have lost the expertise required to provide meaningful updates). That's why there is such a push to open source the Windows App SDK and let the community who actually cares provide the maintenance and support for desktop development. Asking questions about the team size and Microsoft's commitment to this framework will never get a real response from them. The team is very small and they only care about giving support for the Copilot desktop application (which is built using WinUI3 for some reason). If you look at Microsoft's revenue breakdown (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/earnings/fy-2025-q4/segment-revenues) you'll note that the "More Personal Computing" (i.e. Windows) is the smallest amount of revenue with the worst ratio between revenue and income. It simply is no longer a good financial decision to invest resources into a segment that isn't as profitable as other areas. |
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Copilot desktop application is written in WinUI 3 - That explains why it doesn't work properly LOL - seriously, basic stuff fails in it like scrolling. |
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Actually it is an evolution, as originally they used a Webview. |
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Can we expect any breaking changes in WinUI for Windows App SDK 2.0? |
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However, WinUI and UWP are themselves two concepts in different directions. WinUI is a UI model, including WinUI 3 (generally believed to be used for Win32 applications) and WinUI 2 (generally believed to be used for UWP applications, and can also be used for Win32 applications through Xaml islands) 但是 WinUI 和 UWP 本身就是两个不同方向的概念。WinUI 是一个 UI 模型，包含 WinUI 3 （通常一般认为用于 Win32 应用）和WinUI 2（通常一般认为用于 UWP 应用，也可通过 Xaml islands 用于 Win32 应用） |
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Maybe you misunderstood me. WinUI is by no means separated from UWP. WinUI is indeed a UI framework, so I think you won't misunderstand me when I say Windows App SDK. The emergence of WAS is a new stage, just like the migration from UWP to Windows App SDK mentioned in the document. I think WAS is the unification of UWP and Win32. We can view this document: WinUI 3 no longer relies on CoreWindow or CoreDispatcher, so supporting UWP is a logical retrogression. Cleaning up these legacy APIs is a reasonable technical debt treatment, not a "split" behavior. Besides, what you said is logically wrong:
And now WinUI 3 doesn't support UWP, and the last stable version of WinUI 2 was updated in July 2022. Why should WinUI 2 be restored by cleaning up the legacy API (I don't understand the logic of the connection between these two things)? See it: |
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And yet .NET 9 has been made to work on UWP, due to the difference of features still lacking on WinUI 3/WinAppSDK side, and folks not porting their apps. |
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尽管 AppWindow 提供了与 HWND 1:1 的 API 比例，但是很多时候，AppWindow 提供的 API 功能有限，还是不得不使用 HWND。而且在 .NET Framework 中，使用 WASDK 的 AppWindow API 会有一堆的问题，故我不得不使用 HWND Although AppWindow provides a 1:1 API mapping with HWND, in many cases the API functions provided by AppWindow are limited, so it is still necessary to use HWND. Moreover, in the .NET Framework, using WASDK's AppWindow API comes with a bunch of issues, so I have no choice but to use HWND. WinUI 2 的最后一个稳定版本是 2.8.7，不是 2022 年的最后一个版本。望纠正。这个版本新增了对 Modern .NET 的支持。Modern .NET 都没放弃 UWP。除此之外，其他平台，比如 Xbox 只能使用 UWP 应用，不能使用 Win32 应用，这也是 CsWinRT 他们那边做有关 Modern .NET 抛弃 .NET Native 的原因（.NET Native 已经被扫进垃圾堆了，取而代之的是 Modern .NET）。而且据了解，Microsoft Store 不会迁移到 WinUI 3，他们那边正在等待新的 CsWinRT 3.0 支持并迁移到 Modern .NET UWP。如果您认为增加 UWP 支持是技术倒退，那么请建议微软正式支持 Win32 应用在 Xbox 平台上运行。 The last stable version of WinUI 2 is 2.8.7, not the last version of 2022. Please correct this. This version added support for Modern .NET. Modern .NET has not abandoned UWP. Besides this, other platforms, such as Xbox, can only use UWP apps and cannot use Win32 apps. This is also the reason why CsWinRT is working on abandoning .NET Native for Modern .NET (.NET Native has been thrown into the trash, replaced by Modern .NET). Moreover, it is understood that the Microsoft Store will not migrate to WinUI 3; they are waiting for the new CsWinRT 3.0 support and migration to Modern .NET UWP. If you think that adding UWP support is a technical regression, then please suggest that Microsoft officially supports running Win32 apps on the Xbox platform. 部分系统 WinRT API 会对 UWP 和 Win32 应用作出不同的反应，故在一些特殊场景下，我不得不在我的应用中继续使用 UWP Some WinRT APIs respond differently to UWP and Win32 applications, so in certain special scenarios, I have to continue using UWP in my application. |
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WinAppSDK started as Project Reunion, and originally the idea was more in the sense of easing the Win32 => UWP transition. This was the first post after the public annoucement at BUILD / Ignite 2020, too lazy to search for the exact video, https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2021/03/29/announcing-project-reunion-0-5/ Eventually Project Reunion became WinAppSDK, and stuff like XAML Islands were no longer as relevant as originally sold to us, yet another change of plans. |
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I would sum it up like this the core problems, and I think many would agree: 1, Trust and Credibility 2. Unresolved Issues and Missing Features 3. Fluent Design Inconsistency There are also random inconsistencies in the design of the elements themselves differences in shape, spacing, and color. For example, the search box looks and behaves differently depending on whether it’s on Windows or the web. And then there’s the icon situation. Microsoft introduced the new Office icons (let’s call them Fluent v2), but we still see older Fluent v1 icons and even Windows 7 or Vista-era icons scattered throughout the system. Some apps, like Registry Editor, even had a redesigned icon shown off in demos, but it never actually got released. No idea why. I know it might sound petty, but these kinds of inconsistencies in the OS probably come down to laziness. 
You’d think a $3 trillion company could pay a bit more attention to detail. |
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And Microsoft does not, thus allowing decades old software to run, which is arguably more important than looking consistent (depending on your Windows use case). An enormous percent of Windows users would never upgrade the OS if they couldn't run old software. In contrast, Apple killed the Carbon API in 2012, abandoning old software for good. It didn't matter as much for them though since usage was far lower in the preceding decades, especially amongst businesses.
Things haven't finished loading yet?
IMO this is a tool to get newcomers on board faster, and after learning XAML it is mostly useless. Any time I use a WYSIWYG editor I'm disgusted by the code it produces and have to rewrite it all, especially when doing anything that isn't trivial. The displayed UI isn't even necessarily going to look the same as a running program, which is why hot reload is superior (although obviously not perfect).
Apple killed Flash and Silverlight at the same time. Supporting either of those after that event was pointless. Browser plugins were a bad way to do web apps in the long run, and this is coming from a former Adobe Flex dev. |
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People keep forgetting Silverlight was the API for Windows Phone 7 alongside XNA for games, and was still supported as alternative to WinRT on Windows Phone 8 and 8.1. |
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From what I understand, the move to WinRT was because the Windows team did not want to adopt the technologies the Phone team had developed, and so WinRT became the C++ and Xaml 2006 malange we have today (don't forget there was also WinJS for HTML style metro apps) |
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The Windows team has a long history avoiding anything that has some .NET taste on it, since they declared vitory over Longhorn. Turning to the past to power Windows’ future: An in-depth look at WinRT Proposed Extensions to COM+ VOS, the genesis of .NET WinJS was another victim, yeah. |
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Please DO prioritize fixing bugs! You guys introduced new APIs but they're all buggy & half-baked. When I started working with WinUI 3, my feeling was like excited => disappointed => angry => hopeful => depressed. |
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I love WinUI3, all my apps are written in it - great work. My question though is this: will you be providing and keeping up-to-date a Roadmap ? The current roadmaps are always out-of-date; keeping people informed, good or bad, enables us to plan with you so we can develop the best apps possible. |
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Good point for a solid Roadmap. I just searched online for "winui roadmap" and not far down after some irrelevant links to learn.microsoft.com I found this post from May 2025: See the catchy header: "WinUI: The Framework with No Future"... Considering that Avalonia is often suggested as a solid alternative, MS should work harder to make such statement from competitors laughable and no longer actual, ASAP. Until that's done, mass adoption will be delayed, and likelihood of it ever happening will decrease. |
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Here's a point with AvaloniaUI. Let's say you use it, it's pretty much WPF but with AOT and Compiled Bindings, but if you then want to publish your app to the MacOS app store, you can, and it's easier than MAUI, which is mobile based anyway. Oh and it also works on Linux. Even if you develop in normal WPF, Avalonia can make it work on MacOS. Even if you don't want your app to run on MacOS and just stay with Windows, AvaloniaUI with their AOT and compiled binding is really good and faster than WinUI or WPF. Their biggest let down is documentation and support - it's really bad |
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I can totally confirm everything @HEIC-to-JPEG-Dev said about Avalonia UI. I just developed and released 2 Avalonia based apps this month on GitHub. And it was a breeze, fun and fantastic developer experience... UNLIKE with WinUI3!!! |
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Any intention of adopting xaml 2009? |
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Will WinUIEdit.dll be open sourced? |
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1.When will the title bar bugs be fixed? 2.When will the APIs that have been experimental for a long time and available since earlier versions be moved to the stable release?(like PagerControl, microsoft/WindowsAppSDK#5250 (comment)) 3.Do you have any plans to fix Window performance issues? When will they be resolved? (#5148 (comment), #10259) 4.Is there any Native AOT Support for Custom Controls? (using x:Bind in ResourceDictionary) 5.Version 1.8 supports 6.Is there any plan to clean up or hide the UWP APIs that no longer work? (microsoft/WindowsAppSDK#5887) 7.Is there any plan to improve XAML? MAUI adds and supports new features quite well, such as Global and Implicit XML Namespaces (#10616) |
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You will not like the answers. The questions will all be dodged in the Q&A. 1.) Never. |
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Feedback on nomenclature: please always say which version you're talking about. for example, the host just said we'd be talking about the future of WinUI. But isn't the future of WinUI nothing, because it's a dead project? We're all on WinUI3 at this point. And this includes all the documentation. You now have a metric ton of similar APIs with similar names. Every time the documentation is non-specific about what it's actually talking about is a point of friction for understanding the docs. |
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just as this comment, the official docs are not good for developer. We want to use modern C++ to build app, but what we met are many difficulties. C++/WinRT Documentation Is Disorganized and Scattered Across UWP Sections — Needs Consolidation and Modernization Description: The official Microsoft Learn documentation for C++/WinRT is currently fragmented, outdated in structure, and difficult to navigate—especially for developers targeting modern Windows App SDK (formerly Project Reunion) or WinUI 3 applications. A significant portion of the C++/WinRT guides, tutorials, and conceptual content remains buried within the UWP development documentation, even though C++/WinRT is now the standard C++ projection for both UWP and desktop (WinAppSDK/WinUI 3) apps. This creates several issues:
Suggested Improvements:
Impact: |
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I doubt they would do anything on that front, as I replied on the other thread given that C++/WinRT is considered done, and there is zero public efforts on changing anything related to its developer experience, even though Microsoft marketing keeps repeating WinUI supports C++. Yeah it does support it, for a flexible interpretation of support means in practice. There is also the Secure Future Initiative going on, where Microsoft is supposed to ramp down C and C++ use, and Visual C++ currently is facing similar resource constraints to add support for C++23 and later C++26 compliance. So not even the story that was sold to us at CppCon 2017 to possibly use C++ reflection (finally in C++26) as IDL replacement can be considered to ever get this effort going again. If C++/WinRT tooling experience is not comparable to C++ Builder or Qt Creator/Qt Design Studio, there is hardly anyone that would bother with WinUI C++, even if the documentation gets cleaned up. |
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For applications that pursue ultimate performance, zero runtime dependencies, modern UI design, and complete localization, it remains the only choice. About Visual C++, although the 23/26 progress is slow, it is at least worth looking forward to. in other words, finally the IDL replacement becomes more and more approatchable, the story is going to come true in the future.Microsoft C++ Team at CppCon 2025: Trip Report |
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Except the performance sucks versus plain Win32 APIs, as used by C++ Builder and Qt. Even Forms and WPF in .NET are faster than WinUI applications written in C++. Unless C++/WinRT comes back from its maintenance state, with modern tooling as per Microsoft marketing, it is hardly worth the trouble for new projects. |
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Yet, I can't shake a growing sense of unease. Despite promising technical visions at events like CppCon 2025, execution is lagging. The Visual C++ team, once the engine of Windows innovation, now feels like it's moving in slow motion. Meanwhile, flagship tools like Visual Studio 2026 appear to be regressing after many years— still built on .NET Framework 4.8, delivering not architectural evolution, but superficial themes atop a foundation riddled with crashes, memory leaks, and inconsistent behavior. It's not innovation; it's decoration over decay. I can't image what VS software team did what to make this old software still looks like a new car. Why not rebuild it after so many years?**Sorry for my misunderstanding. Most parts of VS2026 are built with C++, only some plugins and workloads are written in C# ** What about Rider? Excellent feedback respond speed and public deal with progress. But VS developer community doesn't look promising if you checked it before you'll find out. It seems that the framework won't be updated even 2030 or longer. it is no exaggeration to say that Windows 11 updates have become increasingly dangerous. Recent update releases offer little beyond bug fixes for bugs introduced the month prior — no meaningful features, just instability and a new version number. The operating system, once a platform of reliability, now feels like a test bed (beta, dev, canary all in a mess). And where are the official testing and feedback teams? Their role seems to have quietly shifted to every developer and end user, turning us all into unpaid QA engineers, but no one cares. Worse, the culture of deep engineering appears to be eroding. Open source efforts like WinUI and Windows App SDK feel performative — repositories exist, but triage is slow, PRs go unanswered, and major decisions remain opaque. It's open source in name only, where the real work happens behind closed doors, disconnected from the community that depends on it. What truely updates is a sudden 2.0 version name and the AI feature that no one cares about. Perhaps the community has seen some improvent these days with people who still stand firm here. Even AI, Microsoft's current obsession, feels increasingly hollow. While Copilot dominates headlines, the underlying tools that power real software — compilers, debuggers, linkers, UI frameworks — see minimal investment. The promise of AI-augmented development is drowned out by the reality of sluggish IDEs, broken builds, and unstable APIs. If Microsoft truly wants to revive its legacy as a developer-first company, it must do more than ship flashy AI demos. It must recommit to engineering excellence: modernize Visual Studio on .NET 10, accelerate Windows App SDK with real community collaboration, stabilize Windows updates, and finally deliver on the promise of a truly modern, reflection-driven native Windows API. |
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Question: How can I properly connect a WinRT Runtime Component written in C++/WinRT to a C# WinUI 3 application? |
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@hellodda |
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Thanks for the answer, but do you have any ready-made examples? |
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It's very simple — you can refer to my project: |
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Nope, But I have a cppwinrt project Consumes C# component. |
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Thanks for your help) |
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It's been a while since the community call. In the last few calls you didn't answer many questions from the threads but at least released a post addressing some of them. |
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Stumbling upon this: https://microsoft.design/articles/designing-a-new-outlook-experience/ made me really sad and angry. The new Outlook for Windows is a web app. It is not native. It is not using WinUI. It is slow and inefficient. Microsoft, until you start making your most important apps in WinUI, we will always feel like ugly, unwanted foster children. |
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The new outlook is by FAR the WORST Microsoft app I ever used in 30 year... they even went GA without be able to work offline ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Yet, Microsoft Design use it as a flagship of excellence. Pathetic. |
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Join us for the next WinUI Community Call on Wednesday, November 5 at 9:00 AM Pacific Time!
📋Agenda
📆Date & Time:
November 5, 2025 17:00-18:00 UTC (9:00-10:00am Pacific)
📍How to join:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbIJz-_DwBM
Bring your questions and feedback — we’d love to hear from you!
Code of conduct
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